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Interview of Harry Cumberbatch MBE, by Georgie Wemyss
Interview
- Media metadata | Métadonnées multimédias
- interviewer | interviewer
- Georgie Wemyss
- interviewee | interviewé
- Harry Cumberbatch
- took place on | a eu lieu le
- 15 February 2024
- took place at | a eu lieu dans
- Online
- right held by | droit détenu par
- Harry Cumberbatch MBE and Georgie Wemyss
Georgie Wemyss 0:06
Thank you so much Harry for agreeing to do this interview this afternoon. Could you just start off by telling me your name, your profession, and how you came to be interested in this statue of Milligan? What brought it to your attention in the first place?
Harry Cumberbatch 0:38
Good afternoon, Georgie.
Before I answer the question, may I get the opportunity to thank you for inviting me to take part in the project. My full name is Harrington Delisle Cumberbatch, and interestingly, my parents told me Harrington was one of the Knights of King Arthur's round table. I hope I have lived up to his chivalry. My professional background is youth work, mental health work, and community work, all spent working in the London boroughs of Tower Hamlets and Newham, where I have lived for the past 60 years. You wanted to know about my interest in the statue and how it was brought to my attention. Well, your project is interested in the local context around the reinstatement of statues, however my main contribution is going to be limited to the shrouding of the Robert Milligan statue when the London, Sugar and Slavery gallery was opened in 2007. I first came into the contact with the statue in 2003 when I was the co-ordinator for a user-led black mental health group called THACMHO {Tower Hamlets African and Caribbean Mental Health Organisation]. I couldn't avoid seeing the statue of Robert Milligan as it lauded the front entrance of the building. My interest in the Milligan statue really came about in 2006, when I was invited by the Museum in Docklands, now called the Museum of London Docklands, to sit on the committee that developed the London,
Sugar and Slavery gallery.
Georgie Wemyss 2:40
So that was in 2006 and then the exhibition was in 2007. So, in terms of the statue then, because we'll come back to discussing kind of what happened in 2007. What does it represent to you? What did it represent, or what did it represent to you at those times in 2003 and then again in 2006.
Harry Cumberbatch 3:23
Uh, well, I will say all statues can be considered to be a remembrance of history and culture at face value. From what I know, it was commissioned by the West Indian Dock Company in 1809 for Milligan's death, to commemorate his achievements. Milligan was a Scottish businessman and merchant who was largely responsible for building the West Indian docks. He was a slave owner in the Caribbean and, as you are aware, the period has been recognised by the United Nations as the greatest crime against humanity. Most of what I've learned about Milligan was from reading about him and his colleagues from the West Indian committees, mainly around the time of the [2007] commemoration.
Georgie Wemyss 4:21
When you originally saw the statue outside of the docks in 2003, had you been aware that it had been there since 1997, or was it something that was really new to you at that time?
Harry Cumberbatch 4:47
It was new to me. I was definitely not aware of it.
Georgie Wemyss 4:54
And so at that time, what did you and others, you've talked about the other people who you were involved with who you were working with at the time, what did you feel about the statue first of all?
Harry Cumberbatch 5:14
Ah, well, [I have physical records and can trace] my maternal great-great-grandparents [who] were enslaved Africans living on plantations in Barbados. Obviously, I'm still affected by that experience of their lives, but THACMHO [Health Through History subcommittee] members had recently completed and published a book titled, Power Writers, [they used to meet at the Museum] and seeing the statue in their face was very disturbing. The book looked at five enslaved African writers who had connections with East London during the 18th century, and they also felt that such a prominent slave-owner of African people [being] so publicly displayed and [revered was wrong and] they were powerless to do anything about it. We met regularly with the museum staff and the National Archives Moving Here project to carry out a recommendation coming from an event evaluating we had done earlier. And someone did write in the evaluation form that we should do something about West Indian seamen who used to come to the West Indian Docks. We took that on board and worked with the Museum in Docklands and [as] I said earlier the Moving Here project, and the outcome of all those meetings was a sell-out conference at the museum in February 2004. And it was titled ‘A Reminiscence Conference on the History of West India Seamen, who sailed regularly during the 1950s and 60s on the Harrison Line ships to the West India Docks’.
Georgie Wemyss 7:21
So before you mentioned about Power Writers, you also mentioned THACMHO, but I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about the organisation, what it is, and what your involvement was, in order to contextualise what you've just said?
Harry Cumberbatch 7:49
You have to go back for that, back to 1996 where I was invited to carry out a consultation looking at the needs of African and Caribbean users of mental health services in the borough of Tower Hamlets. This was part of a request by all local authorities that mental health users should be involved in their care and in those days we had something called community councils. They, [Tower Hamlets Council] had [employed a mental health] worker who wanted to find out their needs. But [for whatever reason] it was very difficult for them to reach the African and Caribbean community, so I was employed for a short consultation to find out their needs.
We held a conference and many of the members, maybe all of them, never even attended a conference before in their lives, furthermore organising one. But we had a very successful conference in 1996 and out of that conference, we remained as a steering committee to carry out the recommendations and [we succeeded to get] those recommendations was from, shall we say, uh, having Caribbean meals in the [local St Clements] hospital to recognising the cultural aspects of the patients and especially areas where [Black] women might need to have their hair done in the way that fits their culture and attire themselves in that way too. Religious needs [recognition for Rastafarian worship] was also part of what was requested, and the big one was to have a centre, a healing centre for African Caribbean members or people in the borough of Tower Hamlets. In the East End generally we're talking about, [and is still an aspiration] so we continued meeting so that we can take the recommendations from the conference to the providers of services - and that's what we did.
I worked with [supported] the group and then it changed from a group into an association [constituted body] and I became the [project] worker. I spent 10 years with the organisation [and for more information see the report a Decade of Delivery] and Power Writers was part of a Health through History project, where a group of the members, [Fabian Tompsett], and I worked with them after recognising that there was so much rich history of African people in the East End of London, but no one was speaking about it. So we done our research and with the help of the Tower Hamlets Library [and archives], we came up with the Power Writers.
So as I said earlier, part of Power Writers after the project, just through an evaluation comment where someone said ‘well you can do something about the sailors that came to the West India Docks’, is when we approached the Museum in Docklands and started to work towards getting that recognised. And as I said earlier, it was a very successful conference, it was oversold because in those days you had to pay to go to the […] museum, but this conference was free and it was overbooked, something unheard of at that time. But we were able to carry it out and you know that information is there, all part of my archives [‘The Cumberbatch Collection’, which you can access at the Tower Hamlets Archives [Search Results (thcatalogue.org.uk)] and you can go to the Tower Hamlets archives and get a copy of that information from the conference.
Georgie Wemyss 12:17
I haven't got a copy of the conference in front of me, but I do have a copy of Power Writers in front of me, in fact I have it with me quite a lot of the time at the moment! I really think it's a wonderful initiative and I really appreciate the context in which it was written, from what you've just said now but what you've also said in other contexts, like when you've spoken about it at, for example, at the archives when you did a session previously, and it really gets me thinking about the museum and that statue of Milligan being outside the museum, and, as you as you said, the trauma of enslavement from generations ago is still there and what that must have felt like every time people who had been involved in excavating these amazing histories, what they must have felt like when they were walking into the museum, and therefore also when you and others got involved in this 2006 consultation for the London, Sugar and Slavery gallery.
So I just wondered whether you could move on to talk a bit about what happened with the museum following on from the Conference in 2004, which was, as you said, a huge success and brought in people who had never imagined that they would be going to a conference in a museum before, and how that lead to London, Sugar and Slavery gallery and then to the impact that that had on the Milligan statue.
Harry Cumberbatch 14:30
Oh, that's interesting. From the conference success, you know, we continued working with the Museum to publish a conference report. We also felt it would be important to work with schools and carry out an oral history project, and also curate an exhibition of West Indian seamen, which we were hoping to hold in the museum. One of the successes was that we worked with the Humanities Department [Tower Hamlets Humanities Education Centre], to publish an educational CD [teacher’s learning pack] titled “Sailors of the Caribbean” which was circulated for secondary schools in the borough.
Regarding our contribution, we went through to the Museum’s Heritage Lottery Fund bid as a community partner, because, as you know, institutions like that would definitely need a partner [to bolster the application as it could show how positively we work together] to show how they work with the community, and we were already there working with them, so we were very happy to write a letter of support. [ … ] You would have known that the application was successful because if it wasn't there’d be no [London, Sugar and Slavery Gallery] museum! The museum was awarded £506,500 for the bicentenary commemoration and, as I mentioned earlier, I was invited to join the committee to commemorate the bicentenary and, as a grassroot member, I was really never afraid to speak up and to be guided by THACMHO [members’ ] comments when London, Sugar and Slavery put out a concept document, which our members contributed to.
My understanding of the committee members’ view on the Milligan statue was that they were uncomfortable that the statue was outside while we were inside, looking at the horrors of the Atlantic slave trade. The opening of the gallery in November 2007 [ the committee] highlighted the next best thing I could say that the committee could have done, and that was when the statue was shrouded in black and tied with some very beautifully done black rope, the opening was really pretty special. For me, it is reflected in the photos that I spoke to you about and I will send you again the shrouding of the statue and also the late chief, Adeyela Adelekan from the Orisha Tradition and Culture [Association], who blessed the opening. Also, some people have asked me why I took the photos and all I can say Georgie is that I knew it was an important moment, I was just fortunate to capture him […] them. I was also pleased really in many ways to contribute to the 10th year celebration of the gallery and highlighted in the video about the gallery what I wrote then, […], which I have a copy here [...] this is from the London, Sugar and Slavery Reader which accompanied the gallery, there were hundreds of them in the beginning, but I think they're pretty scarce to come by now. In it, I said on page eight:
I found it valuable to share grassroots knowledge and experiences of Caribbean and east London communities. However, my hope for the future is that the gallery includes an audit of what Africa lost and what Europe gained from the Atlantic slave trade. This, in my view, would contribute to a positive understanding of world history. Being a part of the London, Sugar and Slavery consultative group has been a very rewarding experience and one which I will always treasure.
So that was what I wrote for the Reader, and the Reader is a very interesting [rare] book because as I say, there’s not many around. But I'll be happy to share it with you but again it’s in the library, it’s in the archives in Tower Hamlets, [where] I have donated a copy.
The main thing I was saying is that THACMHO members really felt very disappointed that after they made so much contribution, in very good faith - that the museum.
basically didn't fulfil its promises, they just weren’t carried out. And yeah, that was a big disappointment.
Georgie Wemyss 20:33
So which promises didn't they carry out?
Harry Cumberbatch 20:37
Oh well, we really never had a look in to work with them after […] the gallery [opened], […] the community involvement was taken away from us [disappeared], [but you can say the whole process was interesting] […] The whole grassroots input and the emphasis behind our members aim to destigmatise mental health, you know, was one thing that [our members] were very clear about. […] We were showing and proving to the world that people that have mental health problems can be healed through knowing who they are, […] and then working with their history to clear misinformation and in the end being proud of who they were [their identity]. And I don't think we were seen as important after [being on the committee] […] the communication became very poor, people were busy doing other things, and some of the things that we wanted to do, - we never even got the opportunity to discuss them. We have letters and correspondence where we pointed out our feelings [our feelings of being treated as if on the periphery] and the museum was also very clear of what our contribution was and there's information around thanking us for all you've [we’ve] done, not only for the [HLF] grant, but for […] the Harrison Lane seamen [conference], and the other work we've done, because we were pioneers. There was nothing like that before within the museum. Museums really were very closed, so it was very much like a breakthrough work. A small community group [being able to contribute so much]. So, yeah, I hope lessons were learned all around. It still has left a bad taste with many of our members who were involved that we were not important anymore after they got the money [and developed the London, Sugar and Slavery gallery] […]. We at least we needed to be listened to. But that's how institutions work, you know, they have to meet their own needs and sometimes small people are not of great value anymore. I don't know.
Georgie Wemyss 24:00
I'm not going to summarise what you said back to you because it's much better that it stays in your own words rather than my interpretation of it! But it's noted that the help that you gave towards the HLF funding and the gallery actually being able to be created. There's a couple of things I just wanted to ask a little bit more from what you've said. The first one is when you talk about photographing the statue, when it was shrouded and of course this was the time before everybody was carrying smartphones around with them, so there just aren't lots of images, because I'm sure if I'd had a smartphone, I would have taken a photo of it. It made a big impression on me when I saw it and I described it in my notes at the time, but to actually have a taken a photograph of it means that you must have taken a camera with you to the event and also as you said you knew that it was important. You also said you were fortunate to take a picture of it, it sounds like it wasn't good fortune, it was that you were you very consciously going there with a camera. I just wondered if you could say a little bit more about why you felt it was so important to get that photograph.
Harry Cumberbatch 25:36
[I have always documented important events throughout my life, rarely will you find me without a camera in hand]
Well, I took other photographs too, you know, so that was just the one of many, let's put it that way. Now it has gained importance because of the George Floyd [murder] situation and Black Lives Matter and the movement to get down statues that are really disrespectful, from a colonial [colonised] perspective. So, I just put the camera and it happened, because I also have other photos, so remember that you know! And they’re there too, some didn't come out as nice as that as I said. Really, to be honest, it was an amazing day, I can't remember, it was just absolutely amazing and the program, the day's program, if you can get a copy of that, you will see that it was absolutely excellent. You know what I mean? Everything about it was so well planned and organised and presented.
Georgie Wemyss 26:58
And apart from you, were there many of the THACMHO members at the event?
Harry Cumberbatch 27:09
Yes, yes there were.
Georgie Wemyss 27:11
Everybody was there?
Harry Cumberbatch 27:12
Well, not everybody because we were a subcommittee within THACMHO, the Health Through History committee, which really were using history to help heal, not just members but the community and anyone who went through the trauma that we experienced as African people in the diaspora. Yes, quite a few of our members were there.
Georgie Wemyss 27:38
I just wondered whether you wanted to say a bit about the priests, the other photo that you mentioned, and about anything else that you know about the priest who came, the Yoruba.
Harry Cumberbatch 28:00
Yeah so as I mentioned, he [Chief Adeyela Adelekan] was from the [Yoruba World] Orisha Tradition [and Culture organisation], but there, as I said, he worked with a Christian [priest]. There were two priests that were there, one was a Christian priest, very elegant, I have a lovely photo of him, you can have a copy of that too. The traditional way of African culture being expressed brought something, as I said, ‘evocally’ - which evokes something, which you would have to experience, you know, I can't describe it, it's just a practical experience. The photos I said I have with him throwing the [cowrie] shells [in a divination], the picture speaks for itself, but I’ll give that to you, OK.
Georgie Wemyss 28:55
Thank you.
Harry Cumberbatch 29:00
And you know that program was so wonderful, really, I think you'll be pleased to see the content of that program for the day. Absolutely amazing stuff. Great stuff. Great stuff, yeah.
Georgie Wemyss 29:17
That's good to know. And you said so the tenth anniversary was in, was that in 2017 then?
Harry Cumberbatch 29:27
I think it was in 2018, I think that some of the people that were behind that was Professor Hakim Adi, Burt Caesar, and myself. I can't remember who else, but other members of the committee did join. But what it was about, was that it was important to remember that, and also it had young people contributing about history, and in a way that was really refreshing. I think Professor Hakim Adi, who led that, he'd done a brilliant job and his team of young people presenting. It was just wonderful the 10th anniversary, and they did take the opportunity to read what I said on a video that went along with the tenth anniversary commemoration.
Georgie Wemyss 30:35
Yeah, I tried to find it on the museum website, but I couldn't find it.
Harry Cumberbatch 30:42
I’ll look it up and have some digging, knowing that you’re a collector in this area.
Georgie Wemyss 30:57
Well, I'm sure they probably have got it somewhere on the website, it's just a matter of knowing how to get it so we'll see, but anyway. I was there and I just remember it being a very lovely occasion!
Harry Cumberbatch 31:13
Well if I find it, I can also pass it on to the Tower Hamlets archives, you know Richard?
Richard would be very happy to take that on board.
Georgie Wemyss 31:32
That would be brilliant. So that was 2018, that was two years before the murder of George Floyd and all of the Black Lives Matter actions that took place immediately following his killing. So in Britain, obviously the Colston statue was pulled down and the day after that happened, well before the Colston statue had been pulled down, people had put some graffiti and various other things on the statue of Robert Milligan outside the museum, and then I think it was taken down the day after the Colston statue had been taken down. I just wondered what your memories of that are, or what your thoughts were at that time in 2020, considering that you'd been so aware and concerned about the statue for a long time?
Harry Cumberbatch 32:42.
This was during Covid period, which is unprecedented in my lifetime, and to see the George Floyd murder being televised, I think shook the world. It brought racism to the front and I think many, many people felt that statues like Colston and others were an affront to a civil society, a society that is caring and have humanity, and people took action. I wasn't part of taking any action, but it was good to know that the younger people, older people, communities don’t have to pass the statue and feel the negativity of it as they look at it, read it, and that it’d be better placed in a place like a museum, where if you want to see the imperial parts of the country, you can go there, and find out about it. But as you say ‘not right in your face’. I will say that museums are a place where you would expect to go and find the past history and it's okay to have the past records that have happened.
Georgie Wemyss 34:29
Did you see any of the pictures before it came down or when it came down?
Harry Cumberbatch 34:44
Are you speaking of Colston or Milligan?
Georgie Wemyss 34:46
Sorry the Milligan one.
Harry Cumberbatch 34:48
No, I just saw it on the news.
Georgie Wemyss 34:54
Right, yeah. I don't know if you know that in the University of East London where I work, there used to be a department called the John Cass Department of Education or something and they had a statue of John Cass inside the university, and at the same time we found out that he also had been involved in enslavement and his statue was removed from inside the building at that time. But before that it was very similar but people, I think people had less, less knowledge about John Cass then they had of Milligan.
Harry Cumberbatch 35:39
Yes.
Georgie Wemyss 35:49
So that was in 2020 and as you said, it was, well, I'm not going to repeat your words again because your words are much better than me repeating them! In terms of what might happen, I'm moving on to one of the latest questions now, what might be remembered in that place instead of Robert Milligan? Have you got your own ideas about which people of the past should be remembered and why?
Harry Cumberbatch 36:28
Well to answer to that question - is that I had the privilege last year to sit on the Mayor of London's round table looking at the [Mayor of London’s new memorial to honour victims of the Transatlantic slave trade] statue, and I chipped in with my little bit. I felt that the statue that is going to commemorate the enslavement of African peoples, which is going to be placed in front of the Docklands Museum, - that there should have input by three sculptors, one from Africa, one from the Caribbean, and one from the UK in a collaboration which can reflect the triangular trade - which was very much part of the basis for the Industrial Revolution and African peoples’ involvement in enslavement and plantation slavery. And as I told you earlier, my great-great-grandparents were enslaved Africans on the island of Barbados, and they only were there in my view, I can't see any other reason why they were there, because the colonialists need labour to work the sugar plantations, so they can produce the sugar. And that labour was really, African people being kidnapped, being captured, being brought across the Atlantic, sold to work on plantations and because of that, you know, I would say that sugar cane should be centre in any remembrance of the statue that's going to replace Milligan, especially coming from the Mayor of London wanting to put a statue there. The London, Sugar and Slavery gallery is inside the building so there's a connection there already and sugar means everything. If people want to recognise the importance of sugar - sugar was also called black gold - it brought so much to change to European life and we were part of that by working on plantations to produce the sugar that created the wealth we’re speaking about. And everywhere you can turn around in the British Isles, Scotland, Ireland, England, you can see the aspects of the plantation wealth, which was then expressed in buildings and castles and all sorts of fancy stuff where people display their wealth through the enslavement of human beings.
Georgie Wemyss 39:19
It's wonderful that you have been sitting on the round table for it. Am I right in thinking that that it's going to be next year, 2026?
Harry Cumberbatch 40:11
The communication has not been great because I only made a contribution for a few meetings because that was what I was invited there to talk about - the statue - and then, I presume, other roundtables to speak about other things, you know, so it's not that something I would be continuing with. If I’m invited back, fine, I will be happy to say that's how I feel and see things. So, I'm not sure when it's going to be announced because as you are aware, Milligan’s statue is now owned by the Museum of London and they are working through what to do with it. So, there's a lot happening in that area, but with regard to [my contribution to] the Mayor of London's […] [initiative] there, I just feel that other people made [valuable] contributions too and I'm sure there are other thinkers around, but just for me, knowing what sugar meant and the gallery inside is London, Sugar and Slavery. The triangular trade would be ending here - Caribbean, UK, Africa. [the relevance of the triangular trade being from the UK to the Africa coast, to the New World and returning to Great Britain is the key].
Georgie Wemyss 41:41
Well, it's great to have you on record saying what your contribution was and your reasons for having concluded that you would like the three representative sculptors to be involved in it and the centring of the sugar cane. What do you think should happen to the statue? You said it's owned by the museum. Have you got any feelings about what they should do with it?
Harry Cumberbatch 42:14
Well let's put it this way. I don't know what an ideal world is any more. You know, we must remember my life has seen many, many changes over the past eighty years. I was born in the year when the statue was removed from the Docks for safety reasons.
Georgie Wemyss 42:52
1943.
Harry Cumberbatch 42:54
1943, that was the year I was born. So, I mean the changes that have happened since then. The values that I might have had when I was 10, 20, 30, life has moved on, so ‘ideal’ would be difficult for me to say because there are many. What I can say really, if it's possible, is to have discussions around how the statue could be used to bring peace. And also, African people, who were enslaved, still need the opportunity to heal from the generational trauma. So, if that statue can create something somewhere, or maybe it could become part of a new imperial British museum. Like maybe, you know, maybe reflecting on some of things I said of what Africa lost and Europe gained from the horrible experience of dehumanisation. I don't know, but I will throw things out and hopefully that in the end it would be about peaceful lives among our fellow men and women. That's about all I can say on that one.
Georgie Wemyss 44:34
That's great, thank you. Well, in a roundabout way we're working our way through all of the questions that you were sent and we kind of jumped one, which was about the barriers that you faced and what your successes have been. You have spoken about that elsewhere because you were talking about the barriers that THACMHO faced, but also the successes. I wondered if you wanted to say any more about that?
Harry Cumberbatch 45:13
Well, obviously I spoke about being part of the committee that set up London, Sugar [and Slavery gallery] and the shrouding of it [the Milligan statue] on the day because that was very important to me. And that only goes to show [how relevant we were] that 18 years before people were objecting to the statue but were powerless to take it down. So I feel that was very important.
One of the questions you had sent me was what events of the past that you were trying to remember and why. I’ve given some thought on that. They were trying to research with THACMHO [Health through History project] about what was happening [to African people] in East London in the eighteenth century.
We used to meet as a small group on the site of the White Raven Tavern, which was a place where the relief for the black poor was shared out. Any meeting place we would meet also [would] have some sort of spiritual connections and most likely the Sons of Africa, which was a very active African organisation [that was important in the movement to abolish slavery], could have met there. These are things that could be pursued in the future. So yeah, I'm happy to be part of that THACMHO group who had that experience. And unfortunately, we weren't able to save the cellar which [was the cellar of] the White Raven Tavern site because it was filled in while we were working there at the [Whitechapel] Mission. It could be a good place for one of the TV teams that they present [in future], ‘ your ancestors’, or something of that building, maybe it can be relooked at. One of the things we came across was well, there were two things that really captured the group members’ minds. And that […] was - you remember I shared that post with you from the [1786] Morning Post article about racism? […] And also Cecil Rhodes’ thoughts on imperialism […] and what he wrote about English people in Whitechapel, shouting for bread. You recognise that imperialism was important if they want to stave off revolution in the country […]. And to have that speech there to teach a lot of people why the British […] [needed] imperialism to survive. That could be another area open for discussion where people can learn from and bring that peace I was speaking about. So those are the two areas and you know, I can send you copies of them if you wanted that.
Georgie Wemyss 49:24
Or you have them in the archive?
Harry Cumberbatch 49:35
Yes, I have them in the archives. That's something for schools to really explore and really appreciate what the thinking is behind imperialism at that time, I presume they could have changed over the years.
Georgie Wemyss 50:01
I think the archives is doing much more work now on the African presence in East London at that time.
Harry Cumberbatch 50:02
Well, yes I'm pleased to be part of that too!
Georgie Wemyss 50:19
But I'm saying that's maybe one of your successes is that, the seeds can go back to the ones that you planted?
Harry Cumberbatch 50:27
Well, I wouldn't say it was, it was more like a THACMHO success! Because Tower Hamlets archives brought out a book in 2001, which was called A Thousand Years of the Hamlets, and in that the African presence was nothing, it was only in 1935 [the 1930s] when they spoke about Somalian sailors. So that was brought to the attention of the head of the libraries department Anne Cunningham, I think that was her name, and she recognised it was an oversight and we provided evidence to show her that African people were living here, living in the borough or in the East End in the 18th century and before. So, she basically helped us by saying she would like it to be corrected and that was where we started to do further research to produce Power Writers and she helped us by agreeing to publish it after we've done the research.
Georgie Wemyss 51:57
Wonderful.
Harry Cumberbatch 51:57
That contact continued with the archives, I remember there was a family history event advertised and I attended it, I think it was in 2017, and we were the only African people. Because when my family is available, we always do things together and we went there and while I was doing something with Malcolm [ the archivist], they went upstairs during the lunch break to look at the collections and all they saw was some box which, how should I put it, it was part of ethnic minorities’ connections, and I mean there was nothing special, there were Jewish people in there, Somalis, you know, there was a box but there was nothing separate. I’d also done some work with the Tony Cheeseman Foundation and we were able to work with the archives to have a Black Family History day, and that alone have contributed to the archives making inroads into reflecting the African and Caribbean heritage in the borough. So yes, I have made a contribution and I'm pleased about that. And I'm still in the business of preserving […].
Georgie Wemyss 53:38
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think we need lots of cross references here to Tower Hamlets archives in order to be able to access many of the things that you've been referring to here as well. Which brings me on to question number eight, which you've spoken about, you've hinted at more indirectly, but asking you what your idea of heritage is. I think you’ve spoken quite a lot about why your heritage is important to you when you've been talking about the whole history of THACMHO. Is there more that you'd like to say about your idea of heritage?
Harry Cumberbatch 54:23
Well at the moment I sit on a committee called the Newham African and Caribbean Heritage Reference Group. I also sit on the Tower Hamlets Communities of Liberation project steering group. Those two groups for me is all about preserving, because at my age now I'm not into developing because it's like waiting [going] around the [in circles] circle. So, I like the definition that we came up with when I sat on the Newham Heritage Month steering group and that was heritage is “the things people, places, and memories that we value today and are worth preserving for the future”.
Georgie Wemyss 55:33
Right. And that's one that you came up with in the discussions of the group?
Harry Cumberbatch 55:40
No, that was not me, that was a collective. We all contributed into it as members of the Newham Heritage Month steering group. But I think what happened is that we all agreed with it because it was a difficult one and I'm sure other people would improve or change it, but that was what we felt was a good definition at the time.
Georgie Wemyss 56:17
Well, that's a great definition. Thank you for sharing that. So I've just got another question which is not directly what you've been talking about, but it's been something that I've been thinking about quite a lot since I've been doing this because it speaks more to my experience of first coming across this statue.
So I first came across it, I think, probably just before the museum was opened, I think probably in about the year 2000, when the Canary Wharf group did this big thing about the 200 year opening of the West India Docks. I don't know if you remember that. I remember then just coming across the statue and being very surprised that it was there and when I then found out that it had been placed there in 1997, I think I told you this before, I just had thought this was in 1993-94, that was when Derek Beackon had been elected as the BNP councillor on the Isle of Dogs and with everything that happened following his election and then all of the anti-racist activity that took place from all different parts of the community to make sure that he wasn't re-elected and the very toxic racist atmospheres that there were at that time, that
the LDDC and the Museum of Docklands leaders thought that it was okay to bring the statue out of storage and to put it there in 1997? You said that you weren't really aware of it at that point, but were you working in Tower Hamlets at that time when Derek Beackon was elected? Were you working in the borough then?
Harry Cumberbatch 58:48
Yeah, I was. I have been working in Tower Hamlets from 1997 and yeah, around ’96, around ‘95-96, I started off in the voluntary capacity before I took up the consultancy [looking at the needs of African and Caribbean users of mental health services in the borough of Tower Hamlets]. So yeah, I was in and out of it. I was just involved in helping and working with African and Caribbean people who, in my view, at that time, had the greatest need. I mean not least that's where most of my energies went, because you can struggle for political rights and all those things, but in the end mental health was totally ignored really. So that’s where my energies went. And the politics came in just presenting the recommendations - which highlighted the needs of African and Caribbean Black people in the borough - through social services, through the Trust and through other [service] providers […]. I must point out one thing that I'll give credit to is Oona King, Oona King had been a real supporter of our group. Were you aware she spoke about us in Parliament? [ House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 Oct 2004 (pt 1) (parliament.uk)] . She attended many of our functions and she gave us some very good moral support. The emphasis was about the users helping themselves [and supporting them] […].
So yeah, but the London Docks LDDC who were responsible for revamping the area and whatnot. I was aware that what was expected to be delivered to the community didn't happen, because many of the jobs and things like that where people felt the jobs weren't the type of jobs that the community had the skills to do. It's that sort of area where there was a wider political debate which I didn't take part in, but I was aware of it.
Georgie Wemyss 1:01:49
Yeah, I can see the point that you kind of really were getting involved was at the end, because the LDDC had kind of finished and was tidying up at that time and finishing off rather than introducing things.
Harry Cumberbatch 1:02:01
Yeah, I remember the high expectations and the hope that they had in the ‘80s for it to do so many good things, and there was very high expectations by the community, especially in jobs, because if you don't have a job really you don't feel very valued.
Georgie Wemyss 1:02:38
Yeah. So, I don't know if you agree, but I think we've covered everything that I've got that I've got notes on. Is there anything that you think that we've missed that you would want to include?
Harry Cumberbatch 1:03:01
No, because [I have shared] a lot of the information that if anybody wanted more [about THACMHO], it’ll be all at the Tower Hamlets archives. But remember, I spent much more time in Newham, and I also have a community experience there from my youthwork days, also from the wider community, from community relations back in the ‘70s, and also lately looking at an activist called Tony Cheeseman - who we remembered his life through a foundation and we honour him. That's a website which we have - a legacy website - which you can have a look at any time too because that was another piece of work that we did which reflected an aspect of the Black community in Newham. That is the https://www.tonycfoundation.com/
That was put together during the lockdown and it's a legacy of what we have done.
We must remember last year THACMHO had its farewell lunch, where it ended 25 years of service in Tower Hamlets in this form. So, I don’t know if THACMHO will rise again, I hope it does, as user-led, because we don’t speak about user-led. Many of the times we speak about doing things for ‘others’, but ‘others’ are quite capable of doing things for themselves if given the support and they build their confidence to help themselves.
User-led work in mental health is something that should be encouraged in my view.
Georgie Wemyss 1:05:30
Yes and you're saying something which, you know, you've been doing forever, but has only become part of everybody else's language much more recently! So, thank you so much, Harry.